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Maybe he now has one of those cars and noticed touchscreens just aren't great for fumbling with while you're not looking because you're supposed to be looking at the road. It would be really weird if he didn't notice such a thing. Any designer, anyone who has read _the design of everyday things_, for that matter.

Maybe he has already dented his car due to this and don't want to do it again.

Well if you know apple hardware at all, then you know the apple car will only run on roads made by apple, or roads that are apple certified to keep you safe. It will also have its own proprietary charging adapter, and it will only charge with special electricity generated by apple in order to keep you safe and private, because other electricity can be dangerous and have malware signals and might let you talk to strangers.

and all tolls / parking will have an 30% apple fee added.

Just because its an industry standard doesn't mean its a good thing.

You'll have to rent the "wheel changing tool" from Apple for $100 with a $1900 deposit on your card.

It'll be a two-post lift with a robot arm that loosens the lugnuts.

You'll have to rent the "wheel changing tool" from Apple for $100 with a $1900 deposit on your card. It'll be a two-post lift with a robot arm that loosens the lugnuts.

You'll have to rent the "wheel changing tool" from Apple for $100 with a $1900 deposit on your card.

It'll be a two-post lift with a robot arm that loosens the lugnuts.

It's not the loosening of the lugnuts that makes it worth $2,000. It's the fact that it tightens it enough to properly remake the watertight seal that prevent your lug bolts from rusting. :-D

But what is the heater and what is the defrost?

But what is the heater and what is the defrost?

Should take all of 10 seconds to learn, unless you are really forgetful I suppose.

Rather than using words, translated into every language

Rather than using words, translated into every language

In theory that would be true, but cars built japan that are imported here that have touch screen radio, that should only need a firmware update (or setting change) to change the language, but cannot have there language changed, the solution is buy a new radio.

Car manufactures can and do lock down the language on because they want to rip you off.

I personally don't think car controls will go back to buttons, not because users don't want it, but because its cheaper for car manufactures put touch screens in and

Have seen it mentioned here several times

Have seen it mentioned here several times

I was going to say, "Will demand?" The number of times I and others have said physical buttons should return and the reasons for doing so could almost fill a book.

Considering this person was in charge of "design" at Apple and he's just now coming around to idea of physical buttons being superior than a flat, featureless screen makes one wonder what other brilliant ideas he had while at Apple.

Then Apple like - "Why aren't people buying our products?"

Wishful thinking. What ACTUALLY happened is apple became of the biggest brands for laptops in terms of marketshare of brands and sheer profitibility (Remember, Apple doesnt do those sub $500 chromebook like laptops).

Which was half the problem under ives. Apple doubled down on removing ports and removing self maintainability because the market kept giving signals that consumers just didnt care, it want the shiny.

That trend has reversed somewhat in re

I solved that by getting a USB-C monitor with additional ports on the monitor. I plug a single cable to my laptop and Iâ(TM)m done. These monitors are not the cheapest, low end ones, but they are reasonably priced. Last I checked a 4K 27 inches with usb C could be had for just around $500.

I do have a USB-C to HDMI, Ethernet, SD, USB A dongle just in case but I rarely use it now that I have the nicer monitor.

Slashdotter one day: "Apple should get with the program and standardize on USB-C just like everyone else. How DARE they not get rid of lightning, firewire, and every other connector but USB-C? It's a scam to make me buy more cables!"

Literally nobody has ever said that (outside, apparently, of Apple itself.) Certainly nobody on Slashdot. Hell, a few of us old timers are disappointed we can't get laptops with RS232 ports any more.

What's been asked for are for standard ports, including USB-C in turn including support for USB PD (charging the laptop), USB Alt Mode, and USB Thunderbolt. Nobody's going to complain about the laptop also having HDMI, USB-A, and maybe some legacy proprietary Apple interfaces.

Stop treating everything everyone says as extreme variants that are, in reality, the exact opposite of what they've argued for. What are you, a Republican?

My TUXEDO Pulse 15 Gen1 has HDMI, USB, and Ethernet, and it's 16.8 mm thick. I can't think why I would want it any thinner.

Oh, but more than one can play that game... Slashdotter one day: "Apple should get with the program and standardize on USB-C just like everyone else. How DARE they not get rid of lightning, firewire, and every other connector but USB-C? It's a scam to make me buy more cables!" Slashdotter the second day: "Apple should include all these other non-USB-C connectors just like everyone else. How DARE they standardize on USB-C and get rid of USB-A, HDMI, and these other connectors? It's a scam to make me buy dongles." Slashdotter the third day: "Apple should get with the program and standardize on USB-C just like everyone else..."

Oh, but more than one can play that game...

Slashdotter one day: "Apple should get with the program and standardize on USB-C just like everyone else. How DARE they not get rid of lightning, firewire, and every other connector but USB-C? It's a scam to make me buy more cables!"

Slashdotter the second day: "Apple should include all these other non-USB-C connectors just like everyone else. How DARE they standardize on USB-C and get rid of USB-A, HDMI, and these other connectors? It's a scam to make me buy dongles."

Slashdotter the third day: "Apple should get with the program and standardize on USB-C just like everyone else..."

The only Apple product that sells well is the iphone. I've used it, it sucked, which is why I don't use it any more.

The only Apple product that sells well is the iphone. I've used it, it sucked, which is why I don't use it any more.

Why did it "suck"? Serious question.

And don't say "Walled Garden", no external storage, headphone jack or replaceable battery; because those "restrictions" should have been obvious before purchasing.

This was before they bravely removed the 3.5mm jack, 6th gen I think. The phone itself was fine though the slippery metal case was dumb.

Mainly it was the OS, no widgets so I couldn't have a calendar on my home screen, couldn't arrange the home screen like I wanted, I think something bothered me with notifications, and in general I didn't like how navigating and managing apps, like you'd have a "back" button somewhere on the screen rather than just a gesture or fixed position. The mail app sucked and was a pain in the ass to set automatic replies or add a reason to meeting request replies. No multitasking.

Well I think that's what I can remember, it's been a few years. Android sucks too but in a different and more acceptable way for me.

A physical control can still go to a computer instead of a relay.

A physical control can still go to a computer instead of a relay.

A physical control can still go to a computer instead of a relay.

Which is pretty much the basis of all PLC controlled industrial automation.

A physical control can still go to a computer instead of a relay.

Yeah, in a modern vehicle, basically all controls are fancy inputs to a computer. Even the shift lever is often just a very big, clunking switch.

The only inputs that aren't computer inputs are the brakes (though a signal is sent to the computer to tell that the brakes have been pressed, but the computer cannot prevent the brakes from being applied), the door locks (the computer can send a lock and unlock signal to the doors, but it cannot over

Even with steer by wire the steering is so far always backed up with a shaft, which is decoupled with an electromagnetic clutch. But yes.

We've covered a story here about a software defined feature linked to a physical button before. Search is failing me right now but there was a big discussion about a button when pressed flashing up a "this feature is not available" along with the opportunity to upgrade based on an infotainment system.

Buttons on a dashboard haven't been connected to anything other than a computer for well over 2 decades now.

If one of a car's features is associated with a physical switch or button, then how is the car manufacturer supposed to remove it in the event that the consumer stops paying the feature's subscription fee?

If one of a car's features is associated with a physical switch or button, then how is the car manufacturer supposed to remove it in the event that the consumer stops paying the feature's subscription fee?

The switch is on a little motorized arm. When the subscription expires, the arm pulls back, flips the switch around into the dashboard, and flips an incongruous blank plate into the hole.

Now the car looks like you were too cheap to buy all the options, the same way the auto makers have made it look since the 1960s.

If one of a car's features is associated with a physical switch or button, then how is the car manufacturer supposed to remove it in the event that the consumer stops paying the feature's subscription fee?

If one of a car's features is associated with a physical switch or button, then how is the car manufacturer supposed to remove it in the event that the consumer stops paying the feature's subscription fee?

Same way a car manufacturer tends to "remove it" if your entry-level model comes with a few pointless and fake buttons and switches on the dash that do nothing, because you didn't opt for that $3000 upgrade package.

In other words, they won't, and they won't care.

I'd be fine with never having an analog speedometer if they would also always have a HUD speedometer. My wife's car has one and it's just fantastic. I never take my eyes off the road for even a second driving her car. It even displays what track is playing on CarPlay, but only for a second, so it keeps the clutter out.

Why? isn't the (mirrored) display embedded in the dashboard and only reflecting off the windscreen?

Yes but then the dealership can't sell you themes for your instrument cluster. We'll be able to install themes for Fast and Furious, Marvel/DC, and Transformers. woopty-do.

What also irks me is digital-only clusters with digital-only speedometers. I don't want to stare at the screen during night driving, I would much rather have an old school cluster with real dials.

What also irks me is digital-only clusters with digital-only speedometers. I don't want to stare at the screen during night driving, I would much rather have an old school cluster with real dials.

Most cars with digital speedometers have an option for displaying an analog version on the LCD display.

In contrast to physical buttons that impart different functionality, I'm not sure how physical read-only devices differ from their virtual counterparts in functionality.

Agreed on buttons. I simply won't buy any car that doesn't have physical HVAC, volume and wiper controls, Especially in the winter when I wear gloves I don't want to fiddle with touchscreens.

Agreed on buttons. I simply won't buy any car that doesn't have physical HVAC, volume and wiper controls, Especially in the winter when I wear gloves I don't want to fiddle with touchscreens.

Additionally, physical buttons are safer because they can be controlled without requiring the driver to take their eyes off the road. Physical buttons are always in the same place, and one can feel the surrounding buttons to find the target button without worrying about accidentally touching and activating an unintended function.

In Europe glow in the dark pigments are not compliant. The cluster has to be lit with bulbs.

The best speedo I've ever had was the one in my Leaf. Digital LED display right under the windscreen, nice and big. I'd also take a HUD projected onto the glass.

I didn't think there were digital-only speedometers, I remember there was a trend but all went back to analog dials. Which makes sense because digital only, you have to take eyes off road, read the number, figure out what it means (too slow, too fast?). Analog dial has a position to perceive on the peripheral, "too much this way you are going way too fast (and ticket bait)" or "I have lots of room to go faster."

Also about physical switches, same thing. Touch screen you have to take eyes off road, focus atte

Is he really this clueless? After years of designing cute icons to get stuff done he suddenly has an epiphany that we need physical buttons? Is this a preview of the long rumored Apple car which will have a ground breaking physical button interface?

So, muscle memory to push a button. Same for physical buttons as for screen buttons. My Tesla has replaced steering column stalks with buttons on the yoke. Much easier to use and you don't have to take your hands off the steering wheel to operate them. I don't know if these yoke buttons qualify for Jony's definition of a physical button but they are in fixed locations and do have a movement that you can feel when you press them. Everything else is on the screen and is rarely used but I have muscle memory of l

Voice control may be superior in your mind, I think it is only good as a secondary way of control.

Voice control has a much higher chance of having slower response times than buttons do.

Voice control scores high in convenience, no discussion necessary about that part. Voice commands require a computer to process them. Computers in cars can be compromised, there is a possibility the computer doesn't recognize the voice command, there could be issues with multiple people talking, etc. All of those things c

Computers in cars can be compromised, there is a possibility the computer doesn't recognize the voice command, there could be issues with multiple people talking, etc.

Computers in cars can be compromised, there is a possibility the computer doesn't recognize the voice command, there could be issues with multiple people talking, etc.

Plus the other obvious things that can affect voice control: elevated road noise and weak cell signals (at least for some cars).

Texting while jogging by tapping the screen? My Tesla and Android phones have voice control and voice text entry. I assume iPhones do also.

location. location. location. having buttons all over the place creates a learning curve. a center screen is a good idea. but the driver is looking forward. adaptive braking is a great improvement. but a car without a brake pedal is something i am not comfortable with.

My Peugeot 2008 has removed all aircon controls on the digital center hub, which is ok, but said screen sometimes crashes and then there is no way to adjust fans or heating/cooling. And there is no way to reboot the hub. Only turning off the car for 15 minutes, turns off the computer that runs the hud and then it might come back. Fortunately the windscreen defrosting has a physical button, otherwise I'd had to stay home couple times every winter.

agreed. i just purchased a subaru plug in hybrid. not going to the gas station every week is enjoyable. but there are buttons all over the place. of course a multi menu system can hide everything. a search option is problematic. voice response seems to be a useful idea. but screaming the car is problematic

My Peugeot 2008 has removed all aircon controls on the digital center hub, which is ok, but said screen sometimes crashes and then there is no way to adjust fans or heating/cooling. And there is no way to reboot the hub. Only turning off the car for 15 minutes, turns off the computer that runs the hud and then it might come back.

Wow! But then, the competence of Peugeot software engineers may have been shown in a video that shows someone tricking the self-driving system into thinking that there was someone i

Well there was no fiddling, the screen goes black and doesn't respond to anything. But a reset button would be nice.

If I can't control it without looking while wearing gloves, it's not for me as a driver.

He's absolutely right. When I bought my last car, I demanded physical buttons. The dealer said, no problem, you can have any color as long as it's black.

For basic and common operations, physical buttons/switches are better because tactile feel helps when you're trying to keep your eyes on the road. And voice commands are not good when you are chatting with a passenger or on voice call. (Voice should still be available as an alternative for most functions.)

The trick is picking and choosing the correct quantity and functionality of the physical widgets, and moving the rest to software. It's an optimization problem of UI design. Apple's generally been good at UI parsimony and intuitiveness (yes, I know they occasionally lay eggs). I hope they don't get into the general car business, but dashboards could be big for them.

For basic and common operations, physical buttons/switches are better because tactile feel helps when you're trying to keep your eyes on the road. And voice commands are not good when you are chatting with a passenger or on voice call. (Voice should still be available as an alternative for most functions.)

For basic and common operations, physical buttons/switches are better because tactile feel helps when you're trying to keep your eyes on the road. And voice commands are not good when you are chatting with a passenger or on voice call. (Voice should still be available as an alternative for most functions.)

I agree with this, although I think using the steering wheel controls for these common features is the least distracting option, most of the time. But yeah - trying to press (for example) the third virtual "button" on a big flat glass display while you're driving is stupid and dangerous.

For sure, the steering wheel only has a limited amount of room. But if you can control volume, fast-forward, and play/pause is the main things I want to do on a frequent basis.

I am rather perplexed, though, why neither my 2015 Toyota Camry (the car that finally replaced my Escort, FWIW) nor my wife's 2019 Subaru Outback seem to offer play/pause on the steering wheel! If you want to pause what you're listening to, you have to either reach for the flat buttonless touchscreen or the (flat, buttonless) phone it

The greatest physical UI for a car's entertainment system was Sony's joystick-like remote controller. With one stick you could confidently use by blind feel alone, you could adjust volume, change the source (radio, cd, dat, ...), change station/track, and more. It combined stick-tilting & 2 independent rotations (the stick itself, and a ring around its base) with buttons you could use as triggers in their own right, or to "shift" a stick/rotation. Learning to use it took a few days... but rewarded you for years.

Some people have actually repurposed old ones by connecting them to an ESP32 host & programming it to be a bluetooth media control HID.

Consumers don't demand anything. They will accept what is spoon fed to them. If consumers demanded something then the iPhone would have been a colossal failure as every man and their dog thought the idea of a phone without buttons was dead-on-arrival.

Consumers accept what they are presented, and while companies keep pushing stupid designs onto software touchscreens consumers will happily keep shopping. There's very few people who chose a car based on the buttons they are given.

That said the modern car is damn advanced so the touchscreen is definitely here to stay as no one will accept a car with more buttons than a spaceship for every individual feature, and there are many things that absolutely do not need to be displayed to the user.

If consumers demanded something then the iPhone would have been a colossal failure as every man and their dog thought the idea of a phone without buttons was dead-on-arrival.

No, only Steve Ballmer and a few deluded dumbasses on Slashdot thought that. Everybody else was either excited or (rightfully) scared to death.

The first time I saw an iPhone, my first reaction was, "Ewww... the screen will be completely smeared in face grease! Who would want a phone like that?!"

It took me a moment to realize that it was just a PDA in disguise, and nobody would actually use it as a phone. Marketing it as a phone was just a ruse to shake the horrible stigma PDAs built up in the 90's.

Consumers don't demand anything. They will accept what is spoon fed to them. If consumers demanded something then the iPhone would have been a colossal failure as every man and their dog thought the idea of a phone without buttons was dead-on-arrival.

Consumers don't demand anything. They will accept what is spoon fed to them. If consumers demanded something then the iPhone would have been a colossal failure as every man and their dog thought the idea of a phone without buttons was dead-on-arrival.

You sure you're not a former Blackberry exec?

I remember the years leading up to the iPhone as general excitement as people realized touchscreen technology was getting to the point where a button-less phone was possible.

Consumers accept what they are presented, and while companies keep pushing stupid designs onto software touchscreens consumers will happily keep shopping. There's very few people who chose a car based on the buttons they are given. That said the modern car is damn advanced so the touchscreen is definitely here to stay as no one will accept a car with more buttons than a spaceship for every individual feature, and there are many things that absolutely do not need to be displayed to the user.

Consumers accept what they are presented, and while companies keep pushing stupid designs onto software touchscreens consumers will happily keep shopping. There's very few people who chose a car based on the buttons they are given.

That said the modern car is damn advanced so the touchscreen is definitely here to stay as no one will accept a car with more buttons than a spaceship for every individual feature, and there are many things that absolutely do not need to be displayed to the user.

Consumers accept what's presented because there's no other choice (you going to build your own car??). But when given choices they start exercising discretion.

I can certainly see the first generation of consumers accepting a terrible new design because they don't realize it's terrible yet, bu

Context : - rental car : Citroën Cactus - trip : France to Germany and back - roads with parts without speed limits, so pedal to the metal, reaching few times speeds above 210 km/h (do the conversion yourself, you imperialists)

Cactus controls : only a touch screen So, when the trip is displayed by the GPS, and you need to adjust the air conditioning or radio or something, you need to spend way too many seconds watching this screen, searching for buttons and menus, and not paying attention to the road, just

How do you call exports of French cars no longer produced in France ?

And if the French designed their cars like the Germans, meaning "simple & functional"

This must be a different Germany than the one where my car was made. How's the beer over there?

"I think, potentially, ... may swing a little"

Great quote there. Whatever happens, he'll be correct with an answer like that.

You could check out the INEOS Grenadier; https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/... [ineosgrenadier.com]

Yes, it's gonna be spendy, but you wanted buttons...

They will demand it. Many already do. Absolutely no manufacturer is going to make such a feature available, probably not even at staggering luxury prices. Buyers do not have any influence over the design of products they are ultimately forced to buy in order to participate fully in society. Car dependency is a disaster for consumers.

I heard it said that screen-based controls require you to look at the screen rather than the road and that is dangerous!

Of course Apple will need to work out some way to monetise this before acting upon it. Patent watchers need to watch out for Apple "inventing" physical controls in the same way that they "invented" the candybar style phone and then sued everyone from Samsung downwards for selling them!

I have been waiting for governmental road safety bodies to say/do something about this. Perhaps they will now?

Good stereo equipment (and the Apple Watch) have physical controls, because they cater to a certain aesthetic.

That's how we got vehicle controls on touch screens.

That's how we got vehicle controls on touch screens.

More like: A physical button costs money. Order from accounting and executives: minimize physical buttons.

Users are just along for the ride. A manufacturer tells them what they want. And marketing cultivates that demand in the customer base.

He's got you convinced you need to play games on your car's console? He's even more cunning than I thought.

joystick gear shift killed people and looked like an regular one. https://jalopnik.com/gear-shif... [jalopnik.com]

Men I hate my Prius Prime for not having a physical button to stop the HVAC when I start the Car, I have to wait the complete bootup of the entertainment systems.and the closing of the warning screen (took several minutes) and that when I system doesn't restart because it doesn't like my android phone.

Even worst is the push start/stop button, when i have to step out for a few second and I let my car running, first the alarm because it's doesn't detect my key in the car, and second, when I get back in the ca

I've owned a Tesla Model 3 for 60,000 miles. It is perhaps the poster child for removing buttons and moving functionality to the screen. Here's my take.

tl;dr If done well, using the Model 3 as an example, eliminating all the physical buttons isn't a problem, and generally makes the vehicle more pleasant. I make no representations of how good an idea this is if not done well.

1. For 99% of my driving, I never touch the screen. The scroll wheels on the steering wheel have the functions that I'd normally use - music and cruise control. A few functions are accessed using the stalks behind the wheel - cruise control engagement, single-wipe (which also pops up the wiper control window on the main screen if necessary), turn signals. 2. The automatic climate control almost completely eliminates the need to touch the climate system for me. Sure, there are people who simply can't live without adjusting temperature, fan speed, etc., almost continuously, but that's almost a nervous tic rather than a necessity IMHO. 3. Every now and then, I need to touch the screen - normally to cancel a F****king annoying prompt from autopilot to change lanes to keep on my route. But, there's a big button that shows up on the screen to do that. 4. Every car maker in the world sucks at screen UI design. For at least the Model 3, however, Tesla did a good job - not perfect (their main clientele is older https://www.evunite.com/blog/teslademographics [evunite.com], a group for whom presbyopia is a real thing. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put some text in approximately 6 point dark grey font on a light grey background? Some 24 year old GUI designer, I'd guess), but as good as it gets. 5. Having a high-quality voice command system like the Model 3 eliminates a lot of the need for buttons also - "My butt is cold" is a fine way to turn on the seat heaters. 6. I have reservations about the Model S Yoke, where all of the stalks are removed and become physical buttons on the wheel. Feedback I've seen says that this doesn't work as well, mostly because the buttons on the yoke were implemented poorly making them more difficult to find. Of course, if someone gave me a Plaid I'd get over it.

From my perspective, the reluctance to eliminate buttons is twofold - partially, it's simply historical - it's what we're comfortable with because that's what cars have had since there have been cars. Partially it's because automakers suck at UI design (did I say that already?). That applies to button-centric design also, but screen-centric design allows them to screw up oh so much more. As an example of bad button UI, my wife's car has a radio with a dozen buttons on it - and when I drive it at night, I have zero chance of finding the control that I want to use. It was far easier on the 1960's car that I drove in High School where there were limited buttons, which meant that there was space to make buttons humongous.

Thank you! We don't care if the actualt temp is 22C or 23C, we just care if it's "warm enough" or "cool enough." If it's a cold day, we *want* the air to be 50C. If it's a hot day (or the car has been parked in the sun) we want to air to be as cold as the AC can manage. Oh and speaking of hot days, we *don't* want the stupid climate control computer to go "derp it's hit so I'll max out the fan" and blow hot air in our faves until the AC compressor has had time to get the cooling system down to temperature (

Pretty much everyone who's not a complete idiot realizes that physical buttons work better than touchscreens in a car, at least for everything that you might want to use while driving. For me, the lack of physical buttons is one of the biggest reasons my current car isn't a Tesla.

OK, I claim to not be a complete idiot, and I don't realize that. Have you ever driven a Tesla?

I've been demanding a return to physical buttons in my car for a while now, but since Jony Ive says I should, I'm going the other way. Give me more haptic touchscreens. Fuck Jony Ive.

Hopefully hes not designing cars now, he'll shave a quarter of an inch off the steering wheel but make it unusable in the process.

I just find the interface terribly awkward and error-prone. I am glad I don't drive, because the amount of concentration needed to prod the screen in the right places would be dangerously distracting. Dedicated buttons and knobs can be operated by feel, with maybe just a glance to see where things are on the console.

I use some electronic test instruments at work, and the modern ones require some touchscreen input, in addition to the physical knobs and buttons. This can be a right pain. One thing that happens is that when I am pointing out some feature on the display, I accidentally touch the screen, and Something Happens. I have to reset all the measurement parameters to get back to where I was.

I don't get why people think mobile phones are a modern convenience. They just make life more complicated than it needs to be. I don't mind a bit of texting, but I am terribly slow with a touchscreen, compared to using the keyboard on my laptop. The main problem is the error rate. I keep on hitting the wrong "key", so I have to delete (if I can hit that correctly), and try again. Sometimes, the button I hit flatly refuses to respond. Did I hit it? Dunno.

I am pretty sure touchscreens save manufacturers a great deal of money. That would apply particularly to cars and complex electronic equipment. What would be an expensive mechanical design and plastic moulding job, which is difficult to modify, becomes a software job, with virtually no hardware costs once you have a touchscreen to interface to.

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